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Game Rules: General

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ArtyomSmalls
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« on: May 29, 2017, 11:15:16 am »

This is a project topic, so please keep discussion related to the work at hand.

Welcome to Game Rules: General. Here we will be discussing the actual rules we'll be using when we play our game on the map we've made.

Not much here yet. :3
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ArtyomSmalls
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 06:12:05 pm »

Gathering some support to help us out with rules. We got a good brain coming in.

Current discussion is based around game phases ("wandering phase", "settlement phase", "city-state phase"), using gameplay to help organically determine aspects of future phases (and establish a sort of history), and what resources we should track and how players should manage them.

Buckle up!
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ArtyomSmalls
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 06:34:32 pm »

Posted with permission. Highlights at the bottom!

Quote from: Chat with Celdur
Celdur: speaking of
Celdur: what do you mean by rules
Celdur: is this an RP game thing?
ArtyomSmalls: okay
ArtyomSmalls: so the idea was
ArtyomSmalls: we're making this world
ArtyomSmalls: originally it was dawn of worlds
ArtyomSmalls: but we decided to be more freeform with the planet design and did that outside of a set of rules
ArtyomSmalls: now that the world is coming together and nearly final
ArtyomSmalls: we're going to start with "life"
ArtyomSmalls: and the life aspect is the game
ArtyomSmalls: god's point of view
Celdur: is this just another spore thing
Celdur: are you trying to trick me
ArtyomSmalls: hah
ArtyomSmalls: no
Celdur: I remember us doing something similar though
Celdur: it was a fantasy thing
Celdur: I was part of it
ArtyomSmalls: yes
Celdur: I created some big walking city dude
ArtyomSmalls: it's part of that game
ArtyomSmalls: part of old spore games
ArtyomSmalls: and part of the rps
ArtyomSmalls: all smashed together
ArtyomSmalls: hence the need for rules
Celdur: will this be fantasy or not-earth
ArtyomSmalls: not-earth
ArtyomSmalls: we are allowing for some slight variance
ArtyomSmalls: Ink wanted people to ride on giant landbirds instead of horses
ArtyomSmalls: that's about as wacky as it gets
ArtyomSmalls: so from the start date and location, 200,000 years will pass before we reach the time when humans developed technology to settle
ArtyomSmalls: so for that 200,000 year span will be the first phase of the game
ArtyomSmalls: guiding roving bands of humans around
ArtyomSmalls: exploring and hunting and ****
ArtyomSmalls: and the game will grow and evolve from there
ArtyomSmalls: we've used EU4 as a model to establish "regions" for things to move about on
Celdur: hmm
Celdur: thats kind of neat
Celdur: speaking of, this recent podcast from joe rogan
Celdur: they talked about these 12000 year old ruins or something
Celdur: pretty interesting
ArtyomSmalls: oh wow
ArtyomSmalls: that's cool
ArtyomSmalls: I gotta catch up with joe
ArtyomSmalls: also I'm gonna generate a map for you real fast
ArtyomSmalls: with the regions on it
ArtyomSmalls: I need to post one up anyway
ArtyomSmalls: ovi and I have built this really cool map file in GIMP
ArtyomSmalls: layers for everything
ArtyomSmalls: currents, fault lines, fault directions, temp, elevation
ArtyomSmalls: and it's only getting bigger
Celdur: anyway, as far as rules go, it depends on what you want to simulate
Celdur: you could do it like civ, add stuff on as tech advances
ArtyomSmalls: heh
Celdur: but do you want to keep track of wealth and religion and population? or is it simpler than that
ArtyomSmalls: well that's kind of the trick
ArtyomSmalls: as the world evolves
ArtyomSmalls: so will the rules
ArtyomSmalls: so like, once we start to settle
ArtyomSmalls: and move to settlement phase
ArtyomSmalls: we're not playing CKII anymore
ArtyomSmalls: we're moving to EUIV
ArtyomSmalls: so to speak
ArtyomSmalls: so we'll be playing the settlement game then
Celdur: yeah
ArtyomSmalls: complexity is our friend here
ArtyomSmalls: we don't want it to be convoluted, for sure
ArtyomSmalls: but there's no problem taking as much time as needed to make the system that works best
ArtyomSmalls: if we need to track population (which sounds like a good idea) then we do that
Celdur: well, a lot about civilizations becoming big is about where they grew up
ArtyomSmalls: yeah!
Celdur: so do you want to have some kind of resource location stuff?
Celdur: keep it simple of course
Celdur: maybe you can go with like 3 or for catagories
Celdur: and then people that settle in x location can decide what that is
Celdur: to flesh out their civ
Celdur: so if a place has x amount of resource
Celdur: they can be like oh hey they discovered bronze and spend those resources that way
Celdur: or say its horses instead
Celdur: or whatever
ArtyomSmalls: yeah I see what you mean
ArtyomSmalls: I'm having a thought now
Celdur: and some people might want to go for places that are resource heavy and grow that way
Celdur: and others might like more religious places
Celdur: or something
ArtyomSmalls: so for the "wandering" phase, let's say
ArtyomSmalls: they wander because they need food?
ArtyomSmalls: they can't settle in one place, and eventually where they are has no food
ArtyomSmalls: so maybe we put "food" as a resource
Celdur: I'm not sure why hunter gatherers spread out like they did
Celdur: maybe they were just nomadic like that
ArtyomSmalls: they were!@
ArtyomSmalls: they had no technology with which to settle
ArtyomSmalls: no plow, so food was from living things
Celdur: I see what you're saying though
ArtyomSmalls: which migrate
Celdur: you start out with a simple game of who can get the most best food
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
Celdur: its an actual game with clear winners
Celdur: this is the best spot
ArtyomSmalls: yeah!
Celdur: this is a **** spot
Celdur: good luck
ArtyomSmalls: and do a few rounds, even
ArtyomSmalls: to determine "start locations"
Celdur: and then when we switch
Celdur: people are dealt a hand
Celdur: of what is there
ArtyomSmalls: winner of each round is now a start location for next round
ArtyomSmalls: Shocked
Celdur: and they can figure it out
ArtyomSmalls: oh
ArtyomSmalls: ohhh
ArtyomSmalls: almonds activating
ArtyomSmalls: Cheesy
Celdur: restrictions are good
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
Celdur: for creativity
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
ArtyomSmalls: because my train of thought was
ArtyomSmalls: we can use this result to force us to have civs in places
Celdur: I say we actualy randomise what people get
ArtyomSmalls: rather than godmodding it
ArtyomSmalls: okay
ArtyomSmalls: would you post some of this at the forum?
ArtyomSmalls: ovi is gonna want to see some of this, too - and hydro will probably have a few opinions when he comes back
Celdur: like the person who gets the best food place
Celdur: their population or whatever would start out stable
Celdur: but maybe when we switch phases
Celdur: there's **** all there  outside of food :y
ArtyomSmalls: Cheesy
Celdur: and sure
ArtyomSmalls: we got food and cancer
ArtyomSmalls: yay
Celdur: I still like the idea of catagories though
Celdur: you don't want to be like
Celdur: there's horses here
Celdur: you are mongols now
Celdur: keep it kinda vague for people to decide what their civ is
Celdur: just limit them by numbers
Celdur: yknow what I mean?
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
ArtyomSmalls: keep the focus on the fundamentals
ArtyomSmalls: these people need food, horses as a resource are meaningless to them
ArtyomSmalls: unless they're eating them
Celdur: yeah
Celdur: so I figure there's a couple of focuses
Celdur: like war resources, or religious stuff, population growth
Celdur: stuff like that
Celdur: and you just keep the numbers vague like that
ArtyomSmalls: oh yeah that sounds perfect
Celdur: and then every 'turn'
Celdur: are there turns?
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
ArtyomSmalls: we think so
ArtyomSmalls: http://i.imgur.com/DHf3bFv.jpg
Celdur: people can work torwards certain resources
ArtyomSmalls: here's the map with regions
Celdur: to flesh out their civ the way they want it
Celdur: so if someone has no war resources, or very little
Celdur: he can still be a good war dude if he spends time on it
Celdur: but it will impact his civ in some way
Celdur: like how are these guys good at war without anything
Celdur: is it some sparta situation?
ArtyomSmalls: gotcha
Celdur: must be a rough place
Celdur: but then somewhere else someone has lots of war resources but doesn't care about war like ****, but they can still be pretty well defended
Celdur: so then you might get some babylon ****
ArtyomSmalls: mm
Celdur: but its up to them to decide how they flesh out the resources in a aesthetic sense
ArtyomSmalls: that's solid
ArtyomSmalls: yeah
ArtyomSmalls: the resource is just a blank slate that points in a general direction
ArtyomSmalls: but sometimes that resource and nudge toward a direction is what is needed
ArtyomSmalls: not wanted
ArtyomSmalls: oh also, on the map
ArtyomSmalls: the starting location is the green island/continent toward the center, just above the snake continent
Celdur: is there some kind of back in the day land bridge stuff going on?
ArtyomSmalls: http://i.imgur.com/FDVHR0s.jpg
ArtyomSmalls: here
Celdur: because otherwise people can't really go to those other islands
Celdur: in the starting phase
ArtyomSmalls: correct
ArtyomSmalls: some may make it to the snake continent
ArtyomSmalls: we've been discussing maybe a cave or some sort of miracle event like that
ArtyomSmalls: but otherwise, that central landmass is quite large
ArtyomSmalls: over 800 miles across
Celdur: also will there be events?
ArtyomSmalls: YES
ArtyomSmalls: Cheesy
ArtyomSmalls: I was quite adamant about there being events
ArtyomSmalls: I had a possible system for it, too
Celdur: oh?
ArtyomSmalls: basically, each of these turns
ArtyomSmalls: there is one event
ArtyomSmalls: mother nature, I called it
ArtyomSmalls: and it's a rotating job
ArtyomSmalls: each turn, one of the players gets to be mother nature
ArtyomSmalls: and cast an event of some kind
ArtyomSmalls: that way we can't really plan for anything
Celdur: every turn meteor in the same location
ArtyomSmalls: planet core
ArtyomSmalls: Cheesy
ArtyomSmalls: the approximate distance from the starting continent to the snake continent
Celdur: well, what you could also do
ArtyomSmalls: 22 miles
ArtyomSmalls: fyi
Celdur: is write up all the events in advance
Celdur: and keep them secret
ArtyomSmalls: ohhhh
ArtyomSmalls: I like that
ArtyomSmalls: we could make a bunch
ArtyomSmalls: that could be a side project, even
ArtyomSmalls: aw man are you writing all this down
ArtyomSmalls: lol
Celdur: steam is
ArtyomSmalls: Cheesy
Celdur: and technically I am
Celdur: this is a chat
ArtyomSmalls: you devil
Celdur: but yeah, for resources
Celdur: you could either decide what each region has
Celdur: or make a table for all the biomes
Celdur: and just roll some dice for all of them
ArtyomSmalls: tables, oh man
Celdur: like desert will have less population growth resources
Celdur: for example
Celdur: probably more religious stuff?
ArtyomSmalls: I think that's reasonable
ArtyomSmalls: gonna post this chat log in the rules topic disussion
ArtyomSmalls: is that okay?
Celdur: sure

The "wandering" phase could be a struggle for resources and managing a small population of nomads. There is nothing more important than food, and they wander where the food wanders. However sometimes there may be time or turns spent sharpening sticks just in case we see that other group of nomads again? Maybe this turn we're staying an extra turn by the romantic seaside, taking a hit on food, but giving the group greater numbers.

This "wandering" phase could have several seasons, so to speak. We spend time each with our own group of nomads, trying to attain a clear goal. There are winners and losers. If you lose, your nomads die and may likely be forgotten to history outside of a random trinket dug up in a few thousand years. But maybe your nomads do well and are the winner for your season. We'll take note of that, and when the "settlement" phase begins, we can use the locations of our "winning" nomads as start locations for prospective civilizations. Perhaps these start locations infer a small bonus or extra trait based on that nomad group's story?

As well, perhaps we assign biome regions certain characteristics or traits that impact and guide the nomads? A team could potentially put together tables to detail what each biome has to offer.

Random events could be written up all in advance, lots of them! All over. We could even have era-specific events that slowly get folded into the mix as time goes on. These events would be picked at random at a designated time.

I think that was most of it. Read the full log to get everything. Big thanks to Celdur for agreeing to help us out with this.
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Oviraptor
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 07:34:19 pm »

Events should mostly be regional save a few global ones. I'd still like to make one of them the Ice Age.

As for spreading around the map, I say people completely dying off should be very rare, instead it should reset your advancement toward settlement. Also, we should keep in mind that in real life, an abundance of food generally slowed advancement toward domestication because there is little need to innovate.

Also, this was my brief idea for an outline from the other forum:

I'll let you guys handle the game mechanics, but here is my brief idea for an outline.



Era of Prehistory

Age of Terraforming

The landforms and environment of the world are created.

Age of Proliferation

An age spanning from the dawn of the anatomically modern human to the beginning of settlement. Age lasts from 200,000 years ago until about 15,000 years ago. During this phase, players will be spreading humans across the planet while simultaneously developing various races, eventually coming to the point of the planets first settlements.

Age of Domestication

Spans the time from the beginning of settlements about 15,000 years ago until the development of writing (alternatively, the development of bronze working, as these things happened at about the same time) about 5,000 years ago. During this phase, players will be developing settlements, starting with isolated villages, domestication various animals and plants, and eventually leading to the beginnings of multi-city civilizations.



None of the names here are final and we can go into better detail once we nail down for sure what we want to do. We've just completed the "Age of Terraforming" and are about to enter the "Age of Proliferation." One thing to remember about the ages, they are defined by the most advanced people of the age. There will still be plenty of peoples that are technologically still within previous ages. Even to this day, we have peoples that are still in what I've called here the "Age of Proliferation." [see: Sentinelese]

Thoughts, everybody?

Edit: To clarify, the Age of Proliferation is the phase we are about to enter.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 07:37:54 pm by Oviraptor » Report Spam   Logged
ArtyomSmalls
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 07:40:09 pm »

Speaking of events, I guess some events should be one-off or have a cooldown rate. Back-to-back ice ages might kill the humans. :3

The "wandering" and "tribal" phases I'm alluding to I guess would be subsets of your "proliferation" phase, if that helps.

With the idea of some nomad groups dying off, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. After that "season" is done, we'd reroll nomads again and explore off in other directions. I think the premise behind it was that it'd let us branch out in lots of different ways and allow for basic threads of history to be weaved every "season". You'd have stories of groups that did not make it and stories of groups that did. I guess the assumption being that... let's say Nomad Group A "wins" season 1. Their final location would I guess be listed as a potential start location for the settlement era. And by the time we reach the settlement part of the game, we'd presumably have played several mini-games of nomads and have lots and lots of potential start locations, each with a baked in starting premise and minor history.

I really like this idea. Celdur was on a roll with this one. If we can find a way to work it in somehow or improve upon it, that'd be swell. But let's definitely discuss it all a lot more!!
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Oviraptor
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 07:46:25 pm »

My point was only that on Earth, humans were nearly everywhere on Earth by 14,000 years ago, so there should still be people everywhere, but most of them at that point would still be hunter-gatherers. Only a few places actually gave rise to civilizations (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization).

Edit: And as for the Ice Age, there should definitley only be one, and it'd be nice if it were at the same time as Earth's:

Maybe? Do we have a rule-set yet? However we do it, I think there should be an "Ice Age" event from approx 110,000 ya to ~12,000 ya (see: Last Glacial Period). During this period there would be temporary landform changes like sea-level drops and advanced glaciation. I realize that that slightly crosses over into the next age, but that's okay because the areas with the most glaciation wouldn't have human settlements yet anyway.
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ArtyomSmalls
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 07:55:06 pm »

Oh I think I understand.

Maybe when we reach certain milestones (in terms of years) we can expand the bubble of human proliferation? Like, on turn 1 they've only ever been 1,000 miles from their origin. But by turn 7 you could have the potential for nomads up to 10,000 miles out from their origin. And then by turn 15, humans have reached just about everywhere and you could roll control of a nomad group at any location.
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